Introduction and Episode Question

[00:00:03] Karen: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Paul: I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:10] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:11] Paul: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is: how do I facilitate an impossible meeting?

Recognizing Impossible Meetings

[00:00:20] Karen: So this is a thing that Paul and I in talking about it discovered we've both been asked to do and ultimately, I'll give you the short answer. Don't. So the, the tricky part and what's worth talking about is how do I figure out that it's an impossible meeting and then at that point it's just about having the gumption to say, nope, this is not a thing I signed on for.

[00:00:43] Karen: So what's, I think I'll toss it to you, Paul, to sort of open us up with what are the hints that this meeting might be impossible?

[00:00:50] Paul: Yes. So there's a phrase that my wife sometimes uses where I talk about clients who maybe aren't doing the level of preparation that I would really, I think is best for them, you know, in order to get the results that they want. And they're kind of really relying on me to, as my wife says, come in and walk on water.

[00:01:07] Paul: And there are times where I look and I go, yeah, you know, it would be better if they did these things, you know, the chair got ready in this way, or These people do these things. But I think of those more as like they're not stacking the deck in their favor. On the other hand, there are situations where what they're asking for.

[00:01:24] Paul: In my experience seems impossible that given all the things that I've experienced, right? They're asking for a set of outcomes that given the other things that they've got in terms of, for example, what they are proposing for a structure or how they wanna engage or maybe even the time that they have available to it.

[00:01:46] Paul: I can't see a way that that could possibly happen, even if I show up with all my skills on my best day, I think it's incredibly unlikely that there's a snowballs chance in hell as the saying goes, that that's actually gonna happen. And so for me, that's what an impossible meeting is. It's kind of over constrained in terms of the outcome that they want, the engagement that they're looking for.

Examples of Impossible Meetings

[00:02:14] Paul: So for example, like I've seen this before where, somebody says, Hey, we wanna do this thing and we want people to really, it's like a town hall, right? We want people to feel heard. We want them to know that we understand what's going on with them. We want people to really come out of it with a feeling of connection to this thing.

[00:02:31] Paul: And then they, you know, when we dig into it, they describe how they wanna do that. And it's nothing but slides and just talking at people. And for me, it's incredibly unlikely that structure is gonna get them the outcome they want. And if they're unwilling to move off of that structure, if that is just fixed and given, I'm starting to go, I don't think I'm the right person to do this for you.

[00:02:53] Karen: Yeah. We'll say for me some other examples. And I do think this is a case of examples. Every facilitator is gonna have their own kind of boundary and what works for them or what they think is plausible. 

Facilitator Boundaries and Preparation

[00:03:04] Karen: But particularly if there are things that are really contentious or in fact if the reason that we're having a meeting is to address a conflict that exists and people are pretty upset with each other, if I can't meet with the participants in advance, like I don't know what to do with their time.

[00:03:21] Karen: I can't structure a meeting. I can't put my creative thinking to work if I don't know what's coming in the door. And the only way I'm gonna know what's coming in the door is to meet with people in advance. So when people are saying, yes, come fix our conflict. But no, I won't talk to you before the meeting.

[00:03:36] Karen: Well, then I'm not gonna do the meeting. Or if people are late, if it's scheduled in a holiday time or it was almost impossible to get it scheduled because everyone is insanely busy and we just found this one little part of one day. Well, it depends on what we're trying to do.

[00:03:55] Karen: But if we're trying to do anything that's very deep or very emotional, even if we had the right number of hours, we're not gonna have the right amount of presence to make that work.

[00:04:05] Karen: So those are some of the warning signs for me is if, and I think sometimes what happens is somebody's organizing in a meeting on behalf of others with great intentions, but the others, like the people who are in the conflict, who need to work it out actually are not very interested in doing any work on it.

[00:04:24] Karen: They want the conflict to go away and maybe they'll show up to a meeting, but they're not saying, what should I do? How can I change, what can I contribute to fixing it? They're not very interested in hearing the other person's perspective, that kind of thing. I am not gonna try to make conflict get resolved between two people who aren't interested in doing the things that it takes to resolve a conflict.

[00:04:44] Karen: So those are some of the examples I've found myself in and I am have learned through painful experience. Just say no. Like, if I don't see, and it's that same standard, Paul, you were saying, if I don't see a way that it's gonna turn out to have been a good thing for the group that I facilitated this meeting, I'm gonna not facilitate the meeting.

[00:05:05] Karen: And I, of course, will work with the organizers to see if we can tweak or adjust or work with, that's the usual thing that happens. But occasionally, for whatever reason, the thing that I think would be necessary to make it successful isn't available. And when that's the case, I opt out.

Alternative Approaches and Solutions

[00:05:22] Paul: Yeah, I realized that one of my other kind of litmus tests for this is like, is there magical thinking involved, right?

[00:05:29] Paul: If you kind of lay this out and go, how do you think this is gonna work out, right? Like, is in your head, like, so we're gonna get from point A to point B in this amount of time by doing it this way. Like, I'm good, but I'm not that good, is maybe one of the ways that I think about it.

[00:05:42] Paul: And I get why people get into that state, it would be wonderful if we could do that. And maybe it's just misplaced trust in the power of a facilitator, right? To like, make these things happen. And so what I will often try to do around those kinds of things, when I'm kind of detecting some of that, like where I have the opportunity, I'm gonna push back on those things.

[00:06:03] Paul: Or I'm gonna say, you know, this seems, oftentimes my language is a little, you know, a little guarded around this, that seems like an ambitious agenda. Right? And see how they react. And it's hard when the people who you, you know, one of the things we're kind of both pointing at is that there's a type of engagement or a level of engagement that we think is necessary to get certain types of outcomes, right?

[00:06:26] Paul: So it's like if the person's not willing to bring you the thing ahead of time. You're like, I can't see how that would get there. And if you're not even able to talk to them, to tell them, Hey, you know, to inquire, would you be willing to, like, what's your thinking about this? If you can't even get to them around that?

[00:06:41] Paul: Then I don't see how you have a way through. And so I think there is a, you know, sometimes things seem impossible, and then as you kind of explore it with people, you start to see what is possible, right? So sometimes there's some descoping around it where you go like, well, I'm not sure how we could get to there, but in the constraints that you have.

[00:07:04] Paul: What we could do is something like this, right? So maybe you're willing to move them to a different outcome and they go, oh, is that, and they might not even have considered like, that's a, you know, that that's a reasonable first step. They're like, oh, is that a thing you could do? I think the other thing that sometimes happens is people don't even realize, particularly if they only have one way of thinking about structure.

[00:07:26] Paul: So for example, one of the things I do a lot when I'm doing offsites, you know, for organizations and they're presenting some new thing, right? This is the strategy change, or this is the way we want people to engage. Or like, this is a shift, right? So there's some communicating of this new thing that needs to happen.

[00:07:45] Paul: The default in most organizations is PowerPoint slides, right? And we're just gonna talk to some slides and we're gonna do some things. And people hate it, but they don't know that there are alternatives. And so I very often turn that into an interview where I'm sitting down with the person who would be presenting those slides and I'm doing a q and a with them where like we've figured out what the talking points are and it becomes much more conversational.

[00:08:08] Paul: And then we also gather questions from the group and like, we do it in a much different way. Most people have never seen anything like that before. So most of the time when people are suggesting this structure that isn't gonna get them the outcome they want. Sometimes it's just because they don't realize there are any other choices.

[00:08:26] Paul: And that's where we as a facilitator can come in and say, so there's actually a couple of different ways you might do that. I don't think the way you're proposing we do this is gonna get you there. Would you be open to doing it this way? What about this? Right? And so that I think is one of the ways that you can kind of turn something that seems impossible into something that's more possible.

[00:08:45] Karen: I think the other time that like we're talking a lot, but as very experienced, skilled, professional facilitators about what comes at us, that doesn't seem possible. 

Skillset and Capacity Considerations

[00:08:55] Karen: But in the real world of our listening public here, I'm imagining that there are people for whom, like it's just out of your skillset, right?

[00:09:05] Karen: If you're not a professional facilitator who eats and drinks this stuff all day long as Paul and I do. Another reason to just be like it's an impossible meeting is we don't have anybody, or at least I don't have the skillset to facilitate that thing like that much complexity or that much emotion or that whatever it is.

[00:09:27] Karen: Like I don't see any way that anything that I know how to do is gonna result in a good thing happening. At which point it's a really good idea to get some help and sometimes just even somebody who's not any more skilled than you are, but like to do that thing well, we're gonna need to run a timer on speakers.

[00:09:45] Karen: I can't keep track of speakers and run a timer at the same time. I'm gonna ask somebody else to run a timer or something like that. But sometimes it's also, this is not amateur facilitation territory. Like we probably need to hire an outside facilitator. And I think it's easy to get caught in the, well, I said I'd facilitate the meeting and now I'm saying I won't unless they do it my way.

[00:10:07] Karen: And that sort of feels like a my way or the highway rigidity thing. And you don't wanna do that. Like you don't wanna be saying, well I won't facilitate this meeting because that thing you're planning to propose at the meeting. I don't like it, so I'm not gonna help it happen. Like, that's in my way or the highway.

[00:10:20] Karen: Like that would be pretty ugly. But if what you're saying is I can't figure out how to do this in a way that the group is gonna benefit, that it's gonna turn out to be a good thing for the group. I don't think it is my way or the highway. Like you may get accused of that 'cause people really don't like not getting their way.

[00:10:38] Karen: But if you've got people saying, no, the meeting has to be like this and it has to be done this way, you're like, if you wanna have that meeting, you go right ahead. But I'm not gonna, like, that's not a meeting I want to attend. Much less facilitate is often kinda how it goes. Or it's just not like, I think what you're asking me to do is just not a thing that I'm comfortable, that my skillset allows for.

[00:10:58] Karen: Like find somebody with a different skillset because I don't think it's me. I think that's super legit and I think it's pretty wise actually. What I hate to see is that a brand new beginning facilitator gets handed a meeting they can't actually handle and then they never wanna facilitate again.

[00:11:13] Karen: And that's unfortunate you know, that's like, handing the kindergarten or some great American novel and saying, here, read, oh, I guess you can't read. Like, no, I never will. Right? We don't wanna do that to people. We really wanna foster the skillset. So I do think that what is the facilitator's capacity, ability, and it may even be capacity in terms of, I'm not gonna have enough time to prep on that day.

[00:11:35] Karen: If we're gonna have the meeting that day, then I'm not your run, whatever. But that capacity, skillset piece, personal to the facilitator, I think is relevant too.

[00:11:43] Paul: And I will say, I've been in this situation a couple times where people have brought me something that seemed impossible to me, given my skillset, right? I was like, I get what you wanna do. Like, I don't know. I don't know that I can get you there. I don't know that I'm the right person to do it.

[00:11:58] Paul: And what was actually really, really useful for me to ask was, what tells you that I'm the right person to do this? And they actually were then able to point to me to say, because I've seen you do this, this, and this, and I think that's gonna be useful here. And that made me go, oh, interesting.

[00:12:18] Paul: And it helped me understand a little bit more about what they really needed and when they thought I could do, where I just didn't initially see that I have had, I can think of at least two situations where somebody came to me with something where it's like, I could see that this. I'm not saying this is impossible, but I think it's impossible for me.

[00:12:35] Paul: I don't think I can do it. And they convinced me to do it, and turns out they were right. I could do it, but I needed their help seeing. 

Engaging in Joint Problem Solving

[00:12:46] Paul: And so for me, like all of this is about my general strategy for this is when someone brings this to me, I'm gonna invite, and I think it's impossible. I don't think it can be done, given the constraints that they're talking about, right?

[00:12:55] Paul: The people we've got the time, we've got the outcome, we want the, you know, the structure, we've got the, all of these things. 'Cause it's all about that. I'm gonna invite them into that space of joint problem solving. 'Cause I'm not gonna be rigid about it and just say like, am I aware of the highway? But what I'm gonna ask for them is, I'm gonna say, I don't see how this is gonna work. Could you walk me through that or what, where are we flexible on this?

[00:13:20] Paul: Or like what's, you know, I'm not telling them, you need to fix this. You need to change this. I'm there with them. If they're not willing to step into that space with me, then that's a sign that this is impossible. And I need to say no to it, but that's how I need to engage with it, even if it seems impossible at first.

[00:13:37] Karen: Yeah, and I a hundred percent have done that as well. And I think, I don't think of it as like a filter for this, because even if I know for sure I'm gonna facilitate the meeting, I'm still gonna start with what are the outcomes that you want? So it's nice that that like the conversation I'd wanna have anyway, is also an opportunity to think about, okay, if those are your outcomes and what your constraints are like, those are kind of the very first questions to ask in facilitation, and I think that's a really useful point to pause and say, is this an impossible meeting?

[00:14:06] Paul: And I do think the last part that you said right before that, which is the whole like, and if you're gonna say no, how do you say no in a positive way?

[00:14:13] Paul: Right? How do you say no in a way that you're indicating that I don't think it would be of service for me to say yes. And this is the thing we sometimes talk about in the coaching world, we sometimes talk about this as colluding, which is where we are going along with our clients in ways that just continue their problems, right?

[00:14:32] Paul: We're not actually challenging them to say, actually, I think there's a problem here. We're being agreeable, in a way that just continues their fantasy that this is possible. And I think that's a real problem, right? So if we can say no and say, actually I can't do this, I'm not gonna do this.

[00:14:49] Paul: And it's because I don't think it's of service to you like to be able to say it that way. You know, to be able to let them know it's not, yes, there's absolutely a degree for you where you're protecting yourself, but also you're doing it to protect them. Because maybe what's gonna happen then is they're gonna decide, let's not do the impossible meeting.

[00:15:09] Paul: Let's not try it. If we ask this person to do it, and the professional said, mm-hmm. Can't do that. Maybe that's a wake up call for them. Maybe not. But then sometimes they go and they have the terrible meeting, and then they come back and say, you were right. What can we do about this now?

[00:15:23] Paul: But doing it in a way that kind of respects and preserves the relationship as best as you can where it doesn't come across in that way. That it's selfish, it's a boundary. We've talked about boundaries before about how if I did this for you, I'd probably just be building resentment, right?

[00:15:39] Paul: This would actually be problematic for the relationship. Sort of thing. So this is kind of how we need to engage and then, you know, to not be dramatic about it.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:15:49] Karen: So the topic today was, how do I facilitate an impossible meeting? And we're saying, don't. If it really is an impossible meeting, don't try it.

[00:15:58] Karen: And find a graceful and respectful way to say, this is not a thing that's gonna work for me, or better yet, this is not a thing that I think is a good idea for the group, for, you know, that sort of combination.

[00:16:11] Karen: And so what we mostly were talking about is how do you know? Because some of the time you look at a meeting and go, wow, I dunno how I'm gonna do this. This could be impossible. But as you work through it and you look at what are the outcomes and what are the constraints. Maybe you adjust some things about the outcomes or you adjust some things about the constraints.

[00:16:29] Karen: So you get expectations that line up within what's reasonable for the constraints. That maybe it's not an impossible meeting. But if they're trying to do more than they can do in the time, if they're trying to use a particular structure that they're attached to that does not have a high likelihood of creating the outcome that they think they want.

[00:16:48] Karen: If they're unwilling to do the advance work to meet with the facilitator in advance, for example, or do other things that would really be precursors for the thing that they're hoping could happen in the meeting. If they're trying to do it at a time when people don't have the capacity to do the thing that you're hoping people will do.

[00:17:06] Karen: Or they're just gonna be very distracted. All those are reasons to think about. If I really believe in my best judgment, this isn't going to work either because the constraints and outcomes don't fit, or because I don't have the skill or capacity to do what would be required of a facilitator to make it work, then I think it's reasonable to come to the conclusion that there is not any significant likelihood that me doing this is going to turn out to benefit the group.

[00:17:33] Karen: It really is the best service for the group. Not to support the bad idea, but rather to set a boundary that says we need to not do a thing that is going to take up time and resources and possibly cause pain and resentment without getting the outcomes that we would need to make it worth all of that.

[00:17:54] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:17:58] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.