Introduction to Employing Differences

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is: how do I advise them?

The Role of an Advisor

[00:00:19] Paul: So one of the things that Karen and I end up doing a reasonable amount in the work that we had do is coming in in an advisory capacity where we are in a lot of ways, the way I think about it is partnering with someone in an organization or working with a community around a particular thing where, you know, we're on the outside.

[00:00:39] Paul: We're not gonna have to live with the results of the thing that we're advising this person, these people about. We're there to help them in some way, but they're the ones who really have to do the work around it and are gonna need to live with the consequences of the decisions that they make.

[00:00:53] Paul: We've also got some expertise that we're bringing into that. And that's where sometimes these relationships can go a little bit sideways. So the thing that Karen and I wanna explore here today is sort of what we've learned about how to show up in a really collaborative way. When we're in an advisory capacity, in an organization to a community sort of around a thing and the type of work that we often end up doing. How can we stay sort of in between these two extremes that it's very easy to fall into when you're asked for your experience and your expertise.

Balancing Expertise and Autonomy

[00:01:31] Karen: Yeah, I find often people think that I'm gonna come in and I'm gonna tell them exactly what to do, and that will solve all of their problems.

[00:01:39] Karen: And it might be true that if I told them exactly what to do and then they did it, that that would solve all their problems. That is imaginable. That that could be true. But it's not useful because in fact they're not gonna do everything just because I said it. That's not how this goes.

[00:01:56] Karen: And so as much as they may be asking me to just tell them what they ought to do, I've learned that I'm far more effective if instead I can hang out with them in that space. But also it can be tempting from my side to be like, I've said it, I've made the suggestions, I've shared the curriculum, I've done the teaching, and they're still not doing it right, according to me.

[00:02:22] Karen: And I just wanna throw up my hands and say, well, I guess they'll learn. And that's also not useful. Like if I just throw up my hands and walk away, I also haven't done my job. And so finding the middle ground where like, I know a thing that's hard for them that they can do, or I see a thing that they're not seeing or that's hard for them to see that may, they're not seeing it.

[00:02:46] Karen: There's probably a reason. But I don't want to do, the teacher knows best sort of dictatorial, hierarchical like demand thing. And I don't wanna do the, well, if you aren't gonna do it, just 'cause I said so then. I'm outta here. You're on your own. It's your problem. Now I wanna find that way to get next to and kind of hold the hand and be partners with, but at the same time totally respecting and honoring and keeping intact their autonomy, their right to make their choices.

Advising in Personal Relationships

[00:03:21] Karen: I wanna right off the bat, we're gonna talk largely from our experience as professionals in this sort of consulting capacity 'cause that's where we do this a lot. But I wanna name that this is also a thing that I do in my friendship relationships. I do it when I'm in community with other people and I'm supposed to be a peer at my very best.

[00:03:38] Karen: I did it when I was parenting. Like these same skills I think are super relevant whatever your role is. That if what we're after is I'm seeing a way that that behavior is not doing what I think that person wants it to. That what I do with that information matters a lot. And if I come in as judgmental or hierarchical, that's likely to go south.

[00:04:05] Karen: But also if I'm just like, well, I said it and now I'm hands off, that doesn't go well. What can I do instead?

Trusting the Decision Maker

[00:04:11] Paul: I think that one of the key things about the dynamic that we're pointing to here is that when you're in this advisor role, the other person is the decision maker, right?

[00:04:21] Paul: They're the ones who's actually gonna make the decision. And so we're trying to provide good input into that decision so that they can make the best decision that they can. And one of the places that it's very easy to go wrong is for us to assume that we know better than they do. Right? And we don't.

[00:04:40] Paul: This is a thing that I come to kind of all of my, certainly professional relationships with, and as you say, try to do this in my personal relationships as well. The other person is the expert in their life. As the expert in their context. And that's a thing that I actually, I coach a lot of my clients about.

[00:04:57] Paul: You know, whether I'm doing consulting or coaching or training or anything like that, I will say, I'm gonna suggest stuff. If it sounds like it's not gonna work in your context, please let me know. Like flag that to me because usually there's things we can adjust about that, right? There's things we can do differently.

[00:05:14] Paul: So it's like part of being a good advisor is trusting the other person to be an expert in their context, in their life, in the things that they're doing and to listen to them when they say things around that. At the same time, you also don't wanna marginalize your own experience and your own expertise.

[00:05:33] Paul: Oftentimes, we are brought in to do things that people haven't really done before, right? Or don't have a ton of experience with. They're looking for an experienced guide. And I think that for us to abandon them, you know, it's like yes, they have to make the decision, but if it seems like they're about to drive everything off a cliff, there's a degree of professional responsibility and personal responsibility that I want to take to say, no, hold on.

[00:05:59] Paul: Like you don't understand that there's a cliff there, kind of thing. I don't want to abandon them to that. To their fate on them and just say, well, I did the best that I could. Right. And I think there are legitimately places where we have to be able to say, I've given them the best advice that I can.

[00:06:16] Paul: A mentor of mine likes to say, I've left it all out on the field. I've done my utmost. I brought my A game. I did what I could. And now because we're oftentimes dealing with uncertainty right? About what's gonna happen if I'm helping someone to prepare for a meeting. We can't predict with a hundred percent certainty what's gonna happen.

[00:06:38] Paul: And so there is a degree to which I have to go. Well, I think we've done everything that we can. Or I think that, you know, I think we've got a good shot here. But I also, you know, but I don't wanna just go, well, you've kind of done what you feel like doing, uh, good luck. Like that feels like not partnering well.

[00:06:56] Paul: Not being a good advisor to the person that you're talking to.

[00:07:01] Karen: And that really brings up for me one thing that I find is super important. 

Establishing Competence and Care

[00:07:06] Karen: When I first got into this business, I think I thought that my job and the thing that would make me successful would be if I convinced them all that I always knew and I always had the answer. And I was al, you know, like, I have this expertise and that being an expert means that I know.

[00:07:21] Karen: I actually think this partnering thing that we're talking about, one of the tenets for me is to always acknowledge I don't know everything. I bring an expertise that probably makes me better at predicting, like I probably see things coming that they would be surprised at, like that they wouldn't see coming.

[00:07:43] Karen: But that doesn't mean I'm right and I haven't been in their organization, or I haven't been in their life, or I don't know what's hard for them or how hard it is or how possible at easement is for them to behave in a different way. Like there's just a lot of things that I don't know, so I don't for a minute wanna be dismissing their own knowledge.

[00:08:05] Karen: What I wanna do is add mine. Like it's not about knocking them down or putting them down, or even telling them they're wrong. It's about giving them the extra ideas that they don't currently have. But I do because of my experience or whatever. So a lot of times I'll say things like, so what you're saying might work just fine.

[00:08:29] Karen: It might go exactly the way you think. I hope that's true. The thing I'd be worried about that I think you may not be seeing is right, so it's that there is a humility in this that's, I don't get to say I know, but that also I do get to say, I have concerns or I have ideas, or I have perceptions that I think you're not seeing and I'm gonna offer them to you in case they're helpful.

[00:08:56] Paul: Yeah, one of the big things around being in that advisory role, right? And offering your experience and your expertise thing is, I think we often focus on establishing our competence, right? Like, they should listen to us because we know better. 'Cause we've seen more, we've done that.

[00:09:14] Paul: And the other thing. But the other thing is they're only gonna listen to us if we know that the reason we're telling them this stuff is because we care about what happens to them. You also need to establish those things. I was doing something for a client recently, and I, was reminded of the Zig Ziglar quote about how nobody cares how much you know until they know how much you care.

[00:09:35] Paul: Right. That piece of, like, you actually do need to demonstrate that. Like when you're sharing something, for example, it's what you were just saying, is it like, you know, it could go the way that you're predicting. I really hope it does, and also because I care about how this turns out for you.

[00:09:51] Paul: I wanna raise this concern. Right? Sometimes you really need to strengthen the level of concern. This is a thing that I struggle with sometimes because sometimes it's not just enough to say I'd be worried about this thing happening. You know? Sometimes I really do need to say like, I think maybe 75% chance that this bad thing is gonna happen.

[00:10:11] Paul: Right? Because that gets enough of their attention, right? And to then go, well, what makes you say that? Or they go, yeah, no, I also think that it's probably three outta four shot that it's gonna go sideways, but I don't think there's much we can do about that. And then we can talk about, but it's about not marginalized your own expertise, your own intuition around some things.

[00:10:33] Paul: You're putting it into the space between. So now you and the person that you're advising can work with it. And I think that's, for me, that's a lot of the key, right? Is that when I'm in an advisory role, the goal is for both of us to put enough into that space in between. That the person I'm advising can make better, more informed decisions that are more likely to get them the thing that they want.

[00:10:56] Paul: And I think that's the thing that they want is a thing that we need to make sure they know we have front and center. That we're telling them this stuff for their benefit. We've talked about this with feedback, for example, that people are much more likely to listen to the feedback you have to give them when they know that you're giving it to them for their benefit, for them, not just for you.

[00:11:19] Paul: And I think that goes really, that's really true. And maybe it goes double, you know, when you're in that advisory role of like, I'm telling you this thing because I have your interests at heart and I'm trying to help you get the thing that you want.

Respecting Autonomy and Offering Support

[00:11:32] Karen: Yeah, and I'll say a precursor to any of this is to have been curious enough to have listened enough to have connected enough that I actually get to where I, like, I think I have an idea of where they are. Like, I mean, again, they know them better than I'm ever gonna know them, but if I've not listened to them, right?

[00:11:52] Karen: If I come in and I don't get all the information that I could get and you know, then there's a problem. So as a precursor to any, like before you advise, definitely the curiosity thing. And I expect we've talked about that in other episodes. But in the moment that this piece about keeping my own humility and really what I have to offer is some information or a perspective, not a foolproof, like this is my answer or not a direction.

[00:12:20] Karen: And it's in the sense of telling someone what to do more of a direction in the sense of here's a way you could go if you wanted to. And what I think would go with that. But an offering as opposed to a telling. And I think that makes a huge difference in just honoring their autonomy and it keeps their defenses down because very often the thing that's getting in the way of them seeing that, or them doing the thing that's actually gonna work best for them is that it doesn't feel safe to them.

[00:12:49] Karen: And if somebody comes at them with judgment, with declarations, with instructions. All of their defensiveness, all of their internal, I'm not safe, I have to protect just ramps way up. And when we're defended, we can't make changes.

[00:13:02] Paul: One of the things that I have. This is one of those things I repeat somewhat often because it's a lesson that I always need to learn myself. But when I'm talking about being in this sort of advisory, you know, sort of coaching role, and I'm working with a client, right? And I always tell people who are kind of new to this work or coming into this, whatever have you, the thing I always have to remind myself is there may be some outcome, right?

[00:13:25] Paul: That they've said that they want to get out of this, right? And we've done the discovery work. I've been curious. They said, this is the thing they want, they want to grow in this way, they wanna do this thing, they wanna do that. Great. 

Avoiding Overbearing Coaching

[00:13:34] Paul: I have to be really careful to make sure that I don't want that more than they do.

[00:13:39] Paul: I can't want it on their behalf because in this type of role, they're the ones who have to make the decisions and do the work. And if I am finding myself wanting to push them harder than they are willing to go, then they feel safe to go. You know, for whatever reason, if I'm pushing, if I'm feeling that deep resistance.

[00:14:01] Paul: I'm setting myself up for disappointment, probably resentment, probably setting them up for resentment, right? It's like, how do I, as we kind of talked about at the beginning of the episode, how do I come along beside them, right? And sort of, I can want that for them, but I've also gotta gauge their level of what they're willing to do around that and trust that that's the right thing, right?

[00:14:23] Paul: I can challenge it, I can poke at it, but I can't push too hard. And it's a thing that I try to do, you know, with a bunch of my clients where sometimes that resistance to doing a bit more is they haven't thought about how to do it before, or they're nervous or they're scared about it, or like, this is gonna be edgy, right.

[00:14:40] Paul: Or whatever have, and I'll poke at it or I'd be like, it seems like, you know, we talked about this thing and you seem reluctant to do that. Help me understand a little bit more about that. Then they unpack something and I go, oh, well actually that's an opportunity for me to offer you support.

[00:14:54] Paul: I know how we might deal with that kind of thing. So it is about respecting their autonomy and being just enough of that sort of challenging presence. Right. That useful. Like, hey, there is something more that you can do, but not throwing them off the cliff and hoping they learn to fly on the way down.

[00:15:14] Karen: Yeah, and I think that piece about it matters a lot to me that in my work that I have to always have front and center the belief that the choice that the group that I'm working with and with me, it's usually groups, but it can be an individual that the choice that that person or those people make will be the best choice for them.

[00:15:35] Karen: Like I can help them make more informed choice, but in the end, if they choose to do something different than what I thought was best for them, they are right because they get to make that choice. And It's a different thing for me to go, oh, well, in my head, like they didn't do what I thought and they got a worse outcome.

[00:15:55] Karen: Whatever. Like that doesn't work as well as if I go, you know, they heard everything that I said because I was careful how I said it and I made it accessible to them. They took it into account and they made a choice. And I believe, I really, really believe that they made the right choice for them, whatever that was.

[00:16:12] Karen: It's not important that I can see how that's the right choice for them. It's very important that I respect not just their right to make their own decision, but their ability to make the best for them. Decision based on factors that they may not be able to articulate and I'll never see, but I've given them the help that I can in a way that they could hear it, and then I stop.

[00:16:35] Paul: And that's that piece of putting it all out there on the field. Sort of thing. You've done your thing and then I think this is the really important thing. I mean, yes, respecting their abilities, like respecting all of that.

[00:16:46] Paul: Like that's important. And then the way you respond to that, right? When they make a decision that isn't the thing that you would've gone with, how do you then continue to support them, right? When they go, all right, so we've heard your recommendation. Here's what we're gonna do instead, right? To be able to go, okay, what can I do to help?

[00:17:03] Paul: Given that, that is the decision you have made. You are the decision makers around this. Now, how can I give you the best chance of success on executing on whatever this decision you made was?

The Mud Puddle Metaphor

[00:17:16] Karen: By way of summary, there's a metaphor that's been played in my head, which is this idea of a, like a 4-year-old is headed into a mud puddle with shoes that are not designed for this. Right? And we're five blocks from home. And you know, the temptation is to grab the 4-year-old and forbid them. No, don't go in that puddle.

[00:17:35] Karen: You're not allowed out. And that's that like overbearing coach kind of thing of saying, I know what's best. I know what the outcome's gonna be. I know what matters. Like I know that. And so I get to tell you what to do. Or the other instinct is, yeah, well they walk through mud puddles, whatever.

[00:17:51] Karen: I guess he'll learn 'cause his feet will be wet and he'll be miserable and then he'll know not to do it next time. And yeah, that's not great either. 'Cause it doesn't help the 4-year-old like predict or work through it. It just leaves them out in the cold and maybe it hurts our relationship. Maybe it doesn't, but it sure doesn't advise or coach or help them.

[00:18:10] Karen: And time consuming and more challenging path. But the one that I think that gives me the kinds of relationships I wanna have with my clients, with the people around me is the one that says, Hey, hold on a second. Can we have a little talk? Because I think you're headed into the mud puddle and I can see how that would be really fun for you.

[00:18:30] Karen: Like, it looks really fun. I just wanna point out, you might not be thinking about, we've still got kind of a long way to walk home. Your feet are gonna get really cold, and I know this 'cause I've done it, but like, is it worth it to you? And then to leave them at choice and if they're, you know, and admittedly a 4-year-old doesn't have a lot of ability to predict and sometimes, you know, if it's trimming around in front of a truck, I would of course grab them and stop them.

[00:18:57] Karen: But for something like wet feet for five blocks, they're not gonna get hypothermia. Like, it's okay for them to have autonomy about that decision and giving them that autonomy to say, this is how it is, and if they choose to walk through the mud puddle, I don't then spend the rest of the walk home. To your point about then, how do we stay with them?

[00:19:17] Karen: I don't spend the rest of the walk home going, well, it's your own fault. You got wet feet. I don't know what you were thinking. You should have done what I said, like, that's not the relationship and connection that we want. What we want is, okay, we gave them all the information that we had. They made a choice.

[00:19:34] Karen: And then we help them from where they are. So now we have wet feet and we're walking home. And you know, Hey, do you wanna stop and take your socks off and just put your shoes back on because they won't be as soggy that way. Or do you, you know, when we get home we can dry you off and get you dry socks and put on some nice warm slippers.

[00:19:52] Karen: Like, I can still be with you without the I told you so, or any of that. So that's kind of the picture for me is how do I support the 4-year-old? That clearly is not predicting how cold and miserable they're gonna be, but also will not thank me for stopping them.

[00:20:09] Paul: And maybe you say to them before they go into the puddle, Hey, do you wanna take your socks and shoes off first?

[00:20:15] Karen: Or come back with boots.

[00:20:17] Paul: Well that's gonna do it for us today. Until next time, I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:20:21] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig. And this has been Employing Differences.