Introduction and Episode Context

[00:00:03] Paul: Welcome to Employing Differences, a conversation about exploring the collaborative space between individuals.

[00:00:08] Karen: I'm Karen Gimnig.

[00:00:09] Paul: And I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:00:11] Karen: Each episode we start with a question and see where it takes us. This week's question is: How do we end this?

The Importance of Ending Well

[00:00:19] Paul: So the reason we're asking this question here today is, uh, twofold. One of them is that it is often useful to think about when you're in a ongoing collaborative project, particularly one that's open-ended where it's unclear sort of what the boundaries of it are. You know, you wanna end it well, and we often don't do those things well.

[00:00:37] Paul: They come to a natural conclusion and we often don't handle them well. But in specific, the second reason is that, that's actually what we're doing here today. Today is the 300th episode of employing differences that Karen and I have recorded here together and we've decided that this is the last episode. So we're actually gonna be ending the podcast.

[00:00:56] Paul: And so we wanted to talk about how might we do that well.

[00:01:00] Karen: So this episode I'm betting it's gonna turn out to be our longest episode yet. Because we're actually trying to do two things. One is that we want to talk about it as we talk about these kinds of things on the episode, on every episode of this podcast. And the other is we want to do it, and we decided to hit record.

[00:01:20] Karen: Maybe not before we did any of it, but there are significant pieces that we did not do offline that we thought it was worth modeling. And making part of what we show our audience about how do we do this and hopefully it'll be a model of how it goes. Well, we think so.

[00:01:37] Paul: We'll find out, I suppose. We're gonna release it. If you're listening to this, it went well enough that we chose to release the episode. Without, without re-recording it. 

Personal Experiences with Endings

[00:01:46] Paul: So I think one of the places we wanna start, right is this idea of like, how to broach the subject actually of ending a collaboration, an ongoing project.

[00:01:58] Paul: Because, you know, 'cause sometimes this will be, this can come up in a lot of different ways, right? This isn't just about doing a podcast together, right? I've seen this in sort of, I've been part of theater groups, for example, that I was part of a theater ensemble, an improv troupe for three and a half years.

[00:02:14] Paul: That was one of the most amazing creative things that I've ever been part of. And that came to an end. And, you know, we had to have the conversation about that, and how it went. There are other places where these things happen. So this isn't just specific to a podcast, but I think there are good ways and better ways, and not so good way, is to kind of broach the subject, the conversation about, hold on, are we gonna keep doing this? Or is there gonna be an end to it here in the near future.

[00:02:40] Karen: And I think very often these things happen as they did for Paul and I, that maybe everybody kind of knows it could be coming. I mean, we've been doing this for nearly six years. I don't know that either of us imagined when we began that it would go for six years, if I was guessing. I don't think I would've guessed that.

[00:03:00] Karen: So it was, you know, not shocking that at some point, one of us would say, Hey, I think, you know, this isn't maybe the thing, let's talk about that. But definitely Paul came to that conclusion and was the one to say it out loud and I wasn't. 

Broaching the Subject of Ending

[00:03:17] Karen: So the last time we met, I think Paul very skillfully said, so, I have a proposal for you.

[00:03:23] Karen: And to be clear, as soon as he said what it was, it wasn't like I thought. Oh, well, I can decide whether I like it or not and if I want him to keep hanging out with me every week, I'm sure he will, just because I insist or demand or beg or something. Like, it wasn't that, it was pretty clear that Paul had done some thinking and figured out it was gonna work for him, but also it was clear that he was open to talking to me about it.

[00:03:47] Karen: So being the receiver of the, this is ending news to present it as a proposal, I thought was very skillfully done. And to make space to talk about it. So even though it wasn't a pure proposal in the sense of, Hey, I have an idea it can happen or not, or whatever, which some of our proposals between us has been, have been that over the years.

[00:04:07] Karen: It certainly was a thing that we could talk about and where there was room for me to kind of process it and say kind of where I was and what my needs would be around it and that kind of thing. And I think this is one of the ways, and one of the themes I think you're gonna hear from us today is the theme that you've been hearing for six years, around things like vulnerability, curiosity.

[00:04:29] Karen: So he didn't come and say, Hey, this is what I have to do without any room for me in it. And that was a vulnerable piece, and I didn't just react and land on whatever my first thought was like, I also took time to be curious about what was going on with him. So that vulnerability and curiosity is, I feel like those are the words that show up most often in our tags for the episode, and they really, really show up here.

[00:04:55] Karen: So I think that's the example of how that, like how do you broach it? That's an example of how it's really skillfully done. And I think the key hallmark is making room for the conversation that needs to happen, even if, or maybe especially if you are the person who has realized the conversation that needs to happen and the person you're talking to hasn't realized it yet.

Handling Emotional Reactions

[00:05:18] Paul: And it's funny because I realize I've been, this is apparently a thing I'm getting practice at. Because I also was the one who some people will know from background stuff that over the course of the show. And one of the things that happened last year is that I left the consulting firm that I had co-founded with my business partner, Jake.

[00:05:36] Paul: I left last fall, more than a year ago now. And so Jake and Allison and I had been working together. And now Allison and I are working together in a new company and Jake is still working together. But I was the one who kind of broached that subject in it, in a similar thing as well.

[00:05:52] Paul: And so apparently I'm getting a lot of practice at saying, I think this is, this has run its course. Right? But you're right that, the being able to, even though I had a pretty clearly defined idea of constraints on like what the set of outcomes from the conversation that I was looking for.

[00:06:09] Paul: I was still open to a wider range. So to be specific about that, what I had said was, you know, we had recorded episode 299. We recorded last week's episode, and then I said, so I have a proposal. Yeah. We had already had today's recording scheduled. And I said, you know, so I have a proposal for you, which is that we record episode 300 on Monday.

[00:06:28] Paul: Right. And that be our final episode. And I stopped at that point, right. You know, cause I didn't wanna bury the lead, it's very easy for me to do the, like, I've been thinking a lot recently and one of the things that's been coming up, like I didn't need to story tell around it.

[00:06:43] Paul: I kind of, I didn't wanna beat around the bush, right. I wanted to say, here's what I'm proposing. And very similar thing, when Jake and I had the conversation about how we, you know, the thing that I said at that point was effectively. I think we're both circling the conclusion that it doesn't make sense for the two of us to operate a business together anymore.

[00:07:00] Paul: And he said, yeah, that seems about right. I'm like, okay, so what are we gonna do? It wasn't the, I'm leaving next episodes, my last one, you know, blah, blah, blah. And then, I don't remember exactly how this went, but you know, I ended up explaining some of my thinking, like, where, you know, here's what I'm thinking.

[00:07:17] Paul: How does that land with you?

Balancing Cognitive and Emotional Responses

[00:07:19] Karen: Yeah, I mean, and I think you gave me time to respond, to think about to whatever, which was really important to me because another one of our themes that shows up here is that cognitive emotional split. And this was an example where, for me, I was very divided. Cognitively, it made a lot of sense. Increasingly over the last several months when we've gotten together and said, Hey, we're we gonna talk about on podcast today?

[00:07:46] Karen: And one of us would throw out an idea and we'd go, oh, well, we kind of already did that one. And I think we came up with newer, useful frames on it, or we went to something else, like, I don't think we couldn't have done another 50 episodes if we really wanted to, but there was a sense that the core stuff that is what we do in consulting and what we teach and what we work with in our space.

[00:08:05] Karen: We've kind of covered a lot of it. So like the cognitive part of me that was like, this does make sense. And frankly, Paul's a busy guy with a lot going on and new things that, you know, like things are growing for him. At some point this is not gonna be the best way to spend time. And honestly, my business has gotten busier recently than it had been for a while.

[00:08:27] Karen: And life has, you know, my, I've got some things going on in my life that wouldn't hate having an extra couple of hours a week or hour a week or whatever it turns out to be. And so there, the cognitive part of me got there right away. But I happen to be a person that emotionally does not let go of things.

[00:08:43] Karen: I mean, I was the kid who cried for three days when summer camp ended, like a one week summer camp. Like, but it's never gonna be there again. And what if I don't see those people? And my little child heard the end of summer camp like that, that is still in me. And I was like, but wait, and this is the way I see Paul and how will I ever see Paul again if we're not doing this?

[00:09:05] Karen: And so the loss and the grief of that, like I definitely had a lot of that to work through and so I like, it would've been easy, I think, for me to hear it and have the emotional piece and the reactivity of that and be argumentative or be defensive or take Paul's statements as a put down and reciprocate was a put down. These are things we see in real life all the time.

[00:09:30] Karen: And that we try hard and have throughout the podcast, I think talked about you've gotta be present with the emotional end of the cognitive at the same time, like the ability to integrate those. Let me say what I think I said, which was, well, I'll be really sad about that.

[00:09:46] Karen: I see that it makes sense and I see that it's right for you, and I even see ways in which it's right for me and for the show, and I'm gonna be really sad about that. And the thing I'm gonna be saddest about is if I don't get to see you anymore.

[00:10:00] Paul: And I immediately took that opportunity to say, I'm gonna miss that too. And so I can acknowledge and agree with the feeling, right? I kind of had to start with the cognitive of the, like this concrete, this is the thing, because if I started with the feeling, I was never gonna get to the point.

[00:10:16] Paul: Right. But, but I also was prepared for you to have any range of emotional reaction. Now, you and I have done enough of this together for me to go, she's probably not gonna scream at me like this's probably. How dare you? I even after 299 episodes, I thought, blah, blah, blah. Yeah. I was like, that seemed really outside the realm of possibility.

[00:10:37] Paul: But I also know how important it's to not gloss that stuff over. But also then just go like, yeah, it's not just you. I also like, I'm gonna miss that too. And I, you know, I think I may have said, that's been one of the things where it's like, that's a thing I worry about losing. So what could we do about that?

[00:10:54] Paul: Right. 

Reconfiguring Relationships Post-Ending

[00:10:54] Paul: And go, how can we continue to have a relationship? Where we do talk about, 'cause I, what folks don't know is that before we turn on the mics, there's a whole lot we talk about that has nothing to do with the show. We have heard a lot about things that are going on in each other's lives that never needed to make it onto the show.

[00:11:14] Paul: Right. And I guess, I think part of what was happening for me, you kind of talked about the, um, and I, and I, and I will miss that. And so that's why we're like, okay, we already have time scheduled for us to get hop on a call just to talk about stuff and catch up in a couple weeks because we know that is a thing that matters to us and we've gotta keep that, like we have to do something to keep that alive.

[00:11:35] Paul: Right. Otherwise it won't on its own. I had the experience a couple weeks ago of, I ran into a coworker, a former coworker, who I had not seen since I left the company that we worked at six years ago. I was on a team with him, like I saw him every day and great guy and I loved hanging out with him.

[00:11:51] Paul: And then I ran into him at a networking event here in town and I was just like, how did six years go by without me ever reaching out? And so, if there's something there, right, where you do wanna hold onto, hey, 'cause what we're really talking about is reconfiguring the relationship.

[00:12:06] Paul: We're no longer gonna be doing this thing together. One of the things about that that we really like, that we wanna hold onto is this connection and talking and like, and also leaving the door open for future collaborations on other projects, on other kinds of things. Like what's the kind of relationship we still want to have.

[00:12:24] Paul: And I'd say also, just to jump back slightly to that proposal thing, right? When I was coming to you and saying like, I proposed that the next episode, you know, be our last one. I was entirely open to the notion of you saying, but I just had this great idea for this 10 episode series about the X, Y, and Z. Where I could go, wow, I'm really excited about that too. Okay, so let's do that before we wrap things up.

[00:12:47] Paul: I was exactly how it was going to end, right? Whether or not this was the episode or it was gonna be some in the future, I was open to. But I also had kind of come to that spot of it was unlikely that you were gonna say something that was gonna make me go, you know, all the reasons that I had for needing to wrap this up, no longer apply.

[00:13:06] Paul: That was unlikely, but I absolutely wanted to make space for all of the feelings around it. For all of the emotional space around it. And I think that's a thing that we so don't often do when we are choosing to or dreading and then avoiding, actually ending projects like this.

[00:13:26] Karen: Yep. And I think that one of the places to point to, and you know, we often talk about counter examples to the advice we're giving and the counter example here would be, if you are ending something with someone that you don't want an ongoing relationship with, it's a very different conversation.

[00:13:40] Karen: I don't think we're gonna do that episode. It's not really our jam, but, but the premise here behind all of it is that to some degree we want an ongoing relationship that's positive and good. And I am delighted that Paul is still interested enough in hanging out that, you know, we'll set up some sort of cadence of, yes, we'll get together.

[00:14:00] Karen: And for me the premise of that is very much what Paul was just describing, which is every time we get together, we put the next one on the calendar. Because if you don't, or even if we need to cancel one, when we cancel, we don't cancel, we delay, we put the next one on the calendar kind of thing because that maintains that connection.

[00:14:16] Karen: And if we weren't wanting that for whatever reason, life has just gotten busy to still, I think the clarity of expectation of saying, you know, really I just, I don't have capacity. If you ever wanna reach out to me, you're still welcome to. I'm not going away mad. This is okay. And I just, I can't put anything on the calendar right now.

[00:14:36] Karen: And I've certainly had moments in my life that I was pretty broadly not putting anything on my calendar, and I just was like, Nope, I can't do it. I'm delighted that that's not where Paul and I are ending this. It certainly is helping my little girl at camp, get in the car and go home from camp a little cleaner because I don't have the, I'm never going to see you again kind of expectation.

[00:14:58] Karen: I have a, I'm going to see you again on this date that we've already chosen and know that we'll get together and do part of what we do. And so that I think that clear expectations and then acting on those expectations, like really enacting those things is super important.

Accepting the Natural Lifecycle of Projects

[00:15:13] Paul: And I think one of the reasons why this is hard is like, in general, we often don't like to admit that there's an ending happening here. And we have a lot of baggage around it, I think oftentimes, we do it badly because we have baggage around it, but we also have baggage around it because we do it badly.

[00:15:27] Paul: Like there's a little bit of circularity there, and I'm thinking about two things in particular. The summer camp thing reminds me that, you know, I've been through a number of. Training programs and things like that where we have, you know, group of people together for a period of time and we're doing a lot of learning together.

[00:15:44] Paul: It's really creative, like it's an intense experience and there's a feeling of connection, community, you know, bonding, and things like that. And I am the sort of person who really treasures that. And the coaching program that I went through. There are 15 of us in the cohort, in the middle of it, we have a residential where we're all together.

[00:16:02] Paul: 'Cause we're spread all over the world during, you know, and then we come together in Orlando, for this one thing. And there's part of, you know, part of the group is just like, okay, so how can we continue to like, stay in touch and to have this community and whatever have you? And one of the people in the group says it's not gonna happen.

[00:16:20] Paul: And she's just like, this is lightning in a bottle, right? It's just like you can't recreate this. Let it be magical for that limited period of time, and then don't try to hold onto it. That's a lesson that I've, you know, that I've tried to, tried to learn because of course I was just crushed by it at the time.

[00:16:39] Paul: I'm just like, what do you mean we're not gonna stay in touch? And now I'm like, I can't remember in the names of half the people in that thing anymore. Right. Sort of thing. It's like, it was forcing me to sort of come to a reality check, you know, with that. I think there is times where you just have to admit like, yeah, we've done this amazing thing, and it was magical and whatever have you, and there really isn't any real way for this to continue, right?

[00:17:01] Paul: So with that group, it's like we're spread all over the world. Like we didn't know each other before any of this stuff. We don't really have an opportunity to work together. I mean, you and I, when we first met at this consultants retreat together, like instantly were just like, let's find a way to keep doing something together.

[00:17:15] Paul: And that was the genesis of the show. And so I think it's easier when it's a dyad, right? When it's two people as opposed to all of the people in your cabin summer camp or whatever. But the other experience that I had that that sort of has helped me to come to terms with the fact that magical things don't last forever, right.

[00:17:33] Paul: Was another sort of creative group that I was part of that was this ongoing sort of process thing. And when we decided to wrap up. And to conclude after several years of doing these things together, there was a lot of, but how could we possibly, and the words came out of my mouth, people quoted it back to me years later, right?

[00:17:50] Paul: Which is awesome things end to make room for more awesome things. Like if we just continue to try to hold on to things that have been great, even when they're still going great, eventually everything has a natural lifecycle and time span to it. And this was not the first time that you and I have, I mean, I think we had even talked at some point in the past of like, Hey, you wanna do this for another year?

[00:18:14] Paul: Yeah. Okay. I think it's important to do that, but recognize you probably, if you're doing it right, are ending something while there's still some life and juice in it. Right. You haven't gotten to the point of exhaustion, resentment, and tiredness. Which can be hard, right, to go I'm being wise, I know that we're doing it at the right time, but wow. Do I not want to let go of it yet?

Grieving and Honoring the Past

[00:18:39] Karen: And I think it's hard because doing it well requires a thing that none of us wants to do, which is to grieve. And it's the duality of honoring the awesomeness of the thing. Which if we honor the awesomeness of the thing, then we have to grieve the end of that thing. Like, there's been this amazing thing in my life and it isn't anymore.

[00:19:00] Karen: And the human response to that is grief. And if we just stay in the cognitive and we talk ourselves out of it and then we skip the grief, but we don't. And I think that, that the grief kind of turns into possibly resentment or possibly baggage. Like I think that for Paul and I, taking the time with the recorder going, because it turned some time before we turned it on, that to say to each other.

[00:19:29] Karen: What we're sad about and that we're sad about this and to name and honor that, it sets up a scenario where if we don't succeed in doing that thing of setting the next date and maintaining whatever, and time goes by and it's been five years or 10 years or whatever, I think the sort of awkwardness of, is he even gonna wanna talk to me again?

[00:19:48] Karen: Should I even reach out to him? Like I think there's less of that. I think we've had this moment to say, you are someone I value. And I value you enough to be really sad that the way that we've been spending time together is coming to an end, which is not saying, I don't think it should happen. It's saying I'm really sad about it.

[00:20:06] Karen: There's a way in which that opens a door for whatever the future piece is without coloring it with all the stories that we use to cover up and escape grief.

[00:20:18] Paul: Well, and the willingness to be sad, right? To grieve in the presence of another person is an act of remarkable vulnerability and also an act of remarkable trust, right? To be able to say like, I'm gonna talk about these things and I'm sad about, and I trust that you can handle it, right? That you're not just gonna, because I think that's, there's often this feeling, we talked about this before, right?

[00:20:39] Paul: That it's like, well, if I express, you know how what I, you know, I'm sad about. So for example, and I'll, you know. One of the things that I will really miss about doing the show with you, Karen, is that there are things where, one of the things I love about the show is that we come to these similar things, these similar topics, like even today's topic, but we come to it from such different angles that I learn a ton.

[00:21:04] Paul: I learn a ton about what I think, but I also get exposed to things I've never seen before, right? From you. And so it's, there are not a lot of people who do the kind of work that I do who teach me as much about this work as you do. And I will miss, I will miss having that.

[00:21:22] Karen: That is lovely to hear. 

Appreciations and Reflections

[00:21:24] Karen: And it morphs us into, and I'm just gonna name it and then I'm gonna join in the piece that I think is really important, which is appreciations. What is it that we valued so much in saying them out loud? And there are so many things that I value Paul about you, some of which are like logistical things.

[00:21:41] Karen: You made the podcast happen. You knew how to do the technology. Like you made it so easy for me to just show up and talk, which is the thing I love to do. And you knew how to make it pretty easy for you too, and you invested in like getting the systems in place and you knew how to do all of that.

[00:21:57] Karen: And another thing I appreciate about you is you have this amazing memory and you pull out the names of books and the names of resources and like ideas and systems and I mean, you're not just, well read, you remember all the things that you've read in ways that I never will. And you never made me uncomfortable about that.

[00:22:19] Karen: You never made me feel less than, you never made me feel like I was less valuable because I don't have that skill that you have. So I got to kind of wallow in the wealth of your knowledge and experience. And I'm gonna go back through my notes. There've gotta be dozens of books that I have written down the names of in my notes of our episodes.

[00:22:40] Karen: Some that were related to what we were talking about and some that just came up in our conversations about life or what was going on. And some of which I have actually read and many of which I've not gotten to and need to go on my list. But that amazing wealth of knowledge that you bring and the, of humility, humility's the right word, but the way that you hold it, that makes it accessible but it doesn't make me feel less. It just in absolute balanced partnership and you bring this amazing, rich thing that I wouldn't have otherwise.

[00:23:12] Paul: You know, we've talked before about how collaboration is really about, you're each bringing your stuff, right? And you're able to bring it really fully. Like, and I have felt like I've been able to bring that sort of encyclopedic research trick brain, kind of thing.

[00:23:27] Paul: Because I'm in awe of your experience, right? And your groundedness in the really emotional space, particularly in conflict spaces and things like that. And it's a place where I've really wanted to learn from you. And so it's like, yeah, I know these things, but I know there's a ton of stuff that Karen's had the, like, you know, sadden the fire around this thing.

[00:23:47] Paul: In ways, in places, in situations that I haven't. And so while, you know, I think, what both of us have done a reasonable job of is like trusting our own expertise and not discounting it, but not overweighting it either. Which I think is a sign of good collaboration.

[00:24:04] Paul: Right. Again, I, I say the thing of like, we're each able to bring our stuff in ways that, you know, I guess one of the things I'm hearing from you is that like in a way that isn't threatening to the other person. But also like, we're not feeling like we have to hold back in order to not threaten the other person.

[00:24:19] Paul: And that's, those are the kinds of really collaborative partnerships that I get tons out of. And I think both of us, and this is a logistics thing, you're talking a little bit about the logistics. So what we're kind of pointing at now is we're getting into like looking at what was it that worked about this and why it's kind of a lessons learned thing.

[00:24:37] Paul: We've talked about some of these things before, and I think if you're doing that sort of retrospective, looking back at, at the end of a thing and trying to pull some of those things out, if you're learning stuff new for the first time, it probably means you made some mistakes along the way.

[00:24:51] Paul: You're like, what do you mean that this didn't go well? But we've talked about how we both deliberately structured this in ways that was easy for us. Right, that we could just show up and do the thing and kind of be very natural about it and bring a really authentic energy to it and not have to worry about sounding smart or impressing the other person or the listener.

[00:25:12] Paul: I think we did a good job of finding a structure that was easy for us, which is how you run a show for six years.

[00:25:20] Karen: Yeah. I think another thing that I appreciate about us, is we avoided the competition trap that it's so easy in the culture that we both wander in to, you know, who's better at this? Who's giving the most? Who's getting the most, like, who's smarter, who's wiser, who's what? Whatever the competition is that sort of competitive judgment, one up, one down kind of thing.

[00:25:45] Karen: And there are a handful of people in my life that I have worked with in one way or another. The co-author on the Cooperative Culture Handbook that I worked with Hannah Ludwig is another for me. But you are very much on the list of people that I can just get together with and work with, and the competition piece just isn't there.

[00:26:02] Karen: We get to be purely collaborative. We don't always agree about everything. We, it's more interesting when we don't actually.

[00:26:08] Paul: Yes, much more interesting.

[00:26:10] Karen: But there isn't a sense of one-upmanship. There's this kinds of collaboration skills that we talk about. We have practiced them with each other, probably more even than a listener could tell from listening to the podcast. And I, I really appreciate that about us.

Acknowledging Support and Audience

[00:26:25] Paul: As long as we're talking about appreciations, there's actually three people that I wanna appreciate who you haven't heard from on the show, and that's Catherine, Nina, and Noreen who have been our three audio editors, over the course of this last several years, who are part of the reason we've been able to do this for as long as we have, who've taken on a lot of the logistics, and the work around that.

[00:26:46] Paul: And so certainly without their work, we would not have made it to 300. And I super appreciate, all that they've done to make us sound, as good as they have.

[00:26:55] Karen: Yes, that has been an incredible gift, and I'm grateful for your wisdom in figuring out to hire them. That was brilliant of you. I also wanted to take a moment to appreciate the audience that we've had. It hasn't been huge, but I want you to know that the episodes that we've done remain and we don't plan to take them down or make them unavailable, and I expect we'll point to them again.

[00:27:17] Karen: But knowing that, some of you have been listening and others will, and I'll say I, I appreciate our future audience. I hope that there will continue to be value from this content and I trust that there will. And it's interesting how I think for me, certainly, and I think for you Paul, that a huge part of the value of this has just been the experience we've had with each other and what we've learned from each other, and that we're doing it.

[00:27:39] Karen: And knowing that there was an audience out there, that there was someone to receive it, that there was a listener to speak to, was the frame in which we committed and stayed dedicated to it. So there's a way in which your being there and our idea that you would be there gifted us with 300 episodes worth of shared life experiences and connections and times together. And I just really appreciate that.

[00:28:03] Paul: Yeah, we kind of said, yeah, we would do the show if no one was listening, right? Because we would. We enjoyed in each other's company and kicking around ideas enough to be able to do that. But knowing that there were actually some people listening, certainly gave some more fuel to that. 

[00:28:19] Karen: So much. 

[00:28:20] Paul: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:28:21] Paul: So we've talked about, I am gonna, I don't know if this is a recap or not. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. Got any more? 

[00:28:27] Karen: Which is, well, the clients that you and I have both worked whose stories taught us the thing, like I know so much more after I worked with a client than I did before, and very often the episodes that you may have heard were new learnings or new processing or topics brought to us because we'd worked with a client.

[00:28:47] Karen: And hopefully we have always respected privacy and confidentiality and nobody's felt like their story got told in an inappropriate way, but certainly your stories have gotten told and that your willingness to share with us as your consultants and your teachers has helped us to be able to share wisdom and help.

[00:29:08] Karen: So not only you get to learn from your mistakes, but a broader audience gets to learn from the struggles that you've had and that you shared with us, and I just wanna make sure we appreciate that.

[00:29:17] Paul: Yeah. And uh, actually I will tag onto that by coming back around to a thing that I will miss, right. And a thing that I will grieve a little bit is, you know, there are absolutely times where I've come to a recording session going, I've got this client that's got this thing and I don't know what to do.

[00:29:32] Paul: Right? And we talk through it. And if it comes the basis for an episode. But it's in the working through of that with you that I start to go, oh, okay, this is what I can do in that situation. So, having a second brain for some of my clients, is absolutely a thing that I will miss.

[00:29:52] Paul: So you, Karen, have positively influenced a number of my clients in ways neither you nor they will ever know.

[00:30:00] Karen: And, and Paul, you can call me anytime.

[00:30:03] Paul: Yes, absolutely.

[00:30:05] Karen: You don't have to wait for our next meeting or, or there to be a podcast. And absolutely the reverse is true as well, that having that processing space and like just that second brain is so valuable. 

[00:30:17] Paul: Well, I think that but actually just pointing, like, just what happened there, right? Is the idea that like, if you're going through this process of talking about things you're gonna miss, things you've appreciated. Things you've learned, right? There may be additional things that pop up where you're like, oh, you know what?

[00:30:32] Paul: We should just have this phone friend agreement, right? Of, Hey, if you run into something with a client and you need 30 minutes in a rubber doc, right? It's just like, let's, we don't have to record it, right? We can just talk about it kind of thing. Um, but like, like that's one of those things that's super obvious in this moment right now, but not something that we had talked about.

[00:30:54] Paul: Before we started this conversation, so it's like, oh yeah, you don't have to wait for our next call. If you've got a thing we're talking through like we would when we got ready to record an episode, it'd be useful. I think both of us now have the explicit permission to reach out to do that, whereas we wouldn't have had that explicitly if we hadn't talked through this process.

[00:31:15] Karen: Yeah. 

Final Thoughts and Conclusion

[00:31:16] Karen: So wrapping up maybe both the episode and I think the show, the concepts of Employing Differences, as I said at near the beginning, are very much present in this topic as well. But I think we talk a lot about how to have enough safety to do the really vulnerable stuff. So to bring up and broach the subject of a possible end in a way that creates safety.

[00:31:39] Karen: Both, you know, like that I, that someone has enough safety, you had enough safety to broach it with me. And in a way that gives the recipient of that news enough safety and enough space to really work through it, I think is really important. And in all of the conversations that you have about it, the vulnerability of the grief space and to be able to grieve and that brings us to the way in which the cognitive and the emotional have to coexist, and sometimes we tease them apart. Okay? So cognitively I'm here and emotionally I'm there and sometimes they blend and feed each other, but always there are both. And so to hold the grief of the wonderful things that are not gonna happen in the same way again with all of the really good reasons why it's time to let this piece go and let it end.

[00:32:26] Karen: And to hold all of that in the same space together. That doesn't just happen at endings. There are all kinds of places in relationships. And the theme that I think was where we started from episode one and where we finish with episode 300 of this is about how to maintain and build connection and relationship.

[00:32:48] Karen: This is about how to be collaborative even as we're deciding not to collaborate anymore. How to be connected, how to avoid the competitive pitfalls that the society around us tends to habituate in us. Because at the end of the day, it is about valuing the relationship as a really primary and worthwhile entity.

[00:33:11] Karen: And how do we do whatever it is that we need to do in our businesses, in our communities, in our life and world in a way that honors and respects the value of the relationship and the connection that we also desperately need as humans. And I think that through our appreciations and through our planning and our setting of expectations for what to go forward, I think Paul, you and I have a long future of a very positive and meaningful relationship that I'm certainly planning to depend on.

[00:33:45] Paul: Well, that's gonna do it for us today. I'm Paul Tevis.

[00:33:48] Karen: And I'm Karen Gimnig, and this has been Employing Differences.